Curse

Racthoh · Jun 02, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

For PvE I fear they follow the latest WoW trend of making the game very easy, and focus on achievements for everything one can imagine. As if we would not have enough games that cater to this scheme already.

It's not just WoW, you're right. Think just about every XBox game tacks on the achievement point system, and even some games on the Wii are guilty of it as well. I'd imagine the PS3 is no different in some regards. I'd wager a guess that designers got their influence from watching speed runs, or lowest score challenge videos of older games and figured if there are people out there who enjoy that sort of thing they might as well include some variation of it in their game. While it doesn't hurt a game to have those challenges it doesn't exactly add anything either. If your game is good people will play it, but don't think for a second that killing 15 turkeys in 3 minutes adds to the quality.

Basically let the players come up with the little diversions to the main objective. Like everyone does now with UWSC.

Gigashadow · Jun 02, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

So, at what point in an mmo's production cycle do they hire all the voice actors? Because in addition to the one already mentioned who did GW2 work, there's also an interview with Gregg Berger who did voices for major GW2 characters (see link below).

It seems that hiring your voice actors is something you would do near the end of your production cycle, so that you won't need to call them back and re-do everything if you decide you want to make changes. It's not like you need the voice acting in early to be able to develop and test the game. But I don't work on games so I don't know if they are actually done that way.

http://www.seibertron.com/transforme...-berger/16029/

Red Sonya · Jun 02, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

and sales don't make one game better than another, just more popular.

Have to majorly disagree with you on that one when it comes to WOW. Yeah their can be a mad rush to buy a POPULAR hyped game "SPORES" that suks and sales drop off tremendously thus it was a POPULAR title, but, turned out to be crapola and thus not the best game. But, WOW has REPEATED SALES of over 11 million subscibers EVERY MONTH so bud it is not only the MOST POPULAR, but, also the BEST OF ALL.

Sorry you don't like the chew on that, but, facts are facts and WOW is the KING of ALL.

Mordakai · Jun 02, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Have to majorly disagree with you on that one when it comes to WOW. Yeah their can be a mad rush to buy a POPULAR hyped game "SPORES" that suks and sales drop off tremendously thus it was a POPULAR title, but, turned out to be crapola and thus not the best game. But, WOW has REPEATED SALES of over 11 million subscibers EVERY MONTH so bud it is not only the MOST POPULAR, but, also the BEST OF ALL.

Sorry you don't like the chew on that, but, facts are facts and WOW is the KING of ALL.

Nope, WoW is just more popular.

Like American Idol is more popular than your favorite show. That doesn't make American Idol a better show.

Longasc · Jun 02, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

So, at what point in an mmo's production cycle do they hire all the voice actors? Because in addition to the one already mentioned who did GW2 work, there's also an interview with Gregg Berger who did voices for major GW2 characters

This is a good question. I guess everyone knows the usual answer "near the end".

But this is somehow contradicting our current knowledge about the rumored 2010/11 release date from the NCSoft report.

Gli · Jun 02, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Maybe they hired some people before they decided to go for a more ambitious game.

shillo · Jun 02, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

But this is somehow contradicting our current knowledge about the rumored 2010/11 release date from the NCSoft report.

Well, our current knowledge is 'more information later this year', from the interviews with Mike O'Brien and Regina.

Gigashadow · Jun 02, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I'm wondering if they changed their strategy of getting lots of player feedback in development. If they are still considering an end-of-year 2010/beginning-of-2011 release (hence "2010-2011" as opposed to just "2011"), they will need to start getting the first external playtesting feedback by early 2010 or so, otherwise there isn't going to be a lot of time to do much iterating over the feedback they get.

Red Sonya · Jun 03, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Nope, WoW is just more popular.

Like American Idol is more popular than your favorite show. That doesn't make American Idol a better show.

Tv shows vs mmorpgs are apples and oranges. Sorry you live in a world of delusion about WOW. As it is THE MOST POPULAR and THE BEST. Be good if you got a dictionary out and looked up the word best btw. WOW fits all best definitions by MAJORITY.

WOW has BESTED GW in SALES and continued subscription sales and is the better/best man for the job.

If you put up a vote for the best MMO out there WOW would win. It wins because it is popular and the best. Note see Barak Obama campaign an election, best and most popular for the job.

Ghost Omel · Jun 03, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Tv shows vs mmorpgs are apples and oranges. Sorry you live in a world of delusion about WOW. As it is THE MOST POPULAR and THE BEST. Be good if you got a dictionary out and looked up the word best btw. WOW fits all best definitions by MAJORITY.

WOW has BESTED GW in SALES and continued subscription sales and is the better/best man for the job.

If you put up a vote for the best MMO out there WOW would win. It wins because it is popular and the best. Note see Barak Obama campaign an election, best and most popular for the job.

Quantity is not always quality

Regardless, opinion are like intestines every one has one , For example runescape has loads loads loads of players..and it is subscription based for premium content by your analogy WoW is on Par with runescape correct?

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 03, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Tv shows vs mmorpgs are apples and oranges. Sorry you live in a world of delusion about WOW. As it is THE MOST POPULAR and THE BEST. Be good if you got a dictionary out and looked up the word best btw. WOW fits all best definitions by MAJORITY.

WOW has BESTED GW in SALES and continued subscription sales and is the better/best man for the job.

If you put up a vote for the best MMO out there WOW would win. It wins because it is popular and the best. Note see Barak Obama campaign an election, best and most popular for the job.

They may be apples and oranges, as you put it, but his concept in regards to comparison is sound.

I believe the phrase is 'What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.' As such just because WoW is popular and has great monthly sales doesn't not mean it is 'the best.' What is 'the best' will vary from person to person as that judgment is a matter of opinion. Which, you're entitled to yours, but if you like WoW so much, it just begs the question....why are you here?

Yes, things win because they are popular (and well known), not necessarily because they are the best. Homecoming King and Queen win their crowns because they are popular, not necessarily because they are great students, great people, or even great friends (who knows how many people they stab in the back when they aint looking). So your argument that WoW wins because it is the best because it is popular is invalid.

Yes, Barrack Obama won because he was by far, the popular candidate, but as to whether or not he is 'the best' for the job has yet to be seen. He has done OK thus far, but there is still a lot of time left in his term. He could still easily end up flat on his face. In the beginning, people thought W. was great too, and look how he turned out! So again, probably not the best example to use.

Mordakai · Jun 03, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Tv shows vs mmorpgs are apples and oranges. Sorry you live in a world of delusion about WOW. As it is THE MOST POPULAR and THE BEST. Be good if you got a dictionary out and looked up the word best btw.

best: better than anybody or anything else; the highest quality standard that something is capable of; used as an enthusiastic endorsement of something.

The problem is, "best" is subjective. I may think that Guild Wars is the best MMORPG ever, that's my opinion, and nobody will be able to change that.

"Most popular" is objective. We look at copies sold, number of current players, and conclude that WoW is the most popular MMORPG on the planet.

But the "most popular" PC game of all time is....

The Sims. So, by your logic, does that make The Sims better than WoW?

I think WoW is OK, but even WoW is better than the Sims.

Quote:

The top ten best-selling PC games. Please note that the sales figures for expansion packs are not used in calculation of the sales figure for the original game (with the exception of StarCraft and Guild Wars).
The Sims (16 million shipped)
The Sims 2 (13 million)
The Sims 2: Pets [expansion pack] (5.6 million)
The Sims 2: Seasons [expansion pack] (1 million)
World of Warcraft (11.5 million subscribers)
World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade [expansion pack] (3.5 million)
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King [expansion pack] (4 million)
StarCraft (11 million)
Half-Life (9.3 million,[21][22] may include PS2 version)
Half-Life: Opposing Force [expansion pack] (1.1 million)
Half-Life 2 (6.5 million, may include Xbox version but does not include Steam sales)
Guild Wars (6 million in North America, Europe, and Asia; includes Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North)
Myst (6 million)
Counter-Strike (4.2 million)
Cossacks: European Wars (4 million)

(Also note "The Sims 2: Pets" Expansion beating out Witch King)

I should also note this is only PC games. The most popular unbundled video game appears to be.... Wii Play! (which is really a controller bundled with a game). Followed by... Nintendogs?!?

Do you think Nintendogs is better than WoW?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...llers_by_genre

And finally, if you still insist that "most popular" = "best"; then it will be a hard day for you when eventually another MMORPG sells more copies than WoW.

That's why I don't use "copies sold" as an indicator of whether a game is good or not. I just play the game I love and not worry about the popularity contests.

Gigashadow · Jun 03, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

I think the problem is that people are defining "good" as some sort of abstract artistic merit, and the problem with this is that then nothing can ever be said to be better than anything else, which makes this sense of "good" a pretty meaningless concept. Is a French dinner at a fancy restaurant better than eating feces? Well, maybe not, because Veronica Moser doesn't agree.

If you instead look at utility (enjoyment), where people vote with their free time and money where they want to spend it, and you assume that any one person doesn't count more than anyone else's (i.e. you are not a superior human with refined tastes because you consider Age of Conan to be a "fine wine" and WoW to be McDonalds -- as their devs claimed), then you can look at what provides the most utility to the most people.

Obrien Xp · Jun 03, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

People will always have a prefered method of game-play. Also, WoW has much more advertising.

Mordakai · Jun 03, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I think the problem is that people are defining "good" as some sort of abstract artistic merit, and the problem with this is that then nothing can ever be said to be better than anything else, which makes this sense of "good" a pretty meaningless concept. Is a French dinner at a fancy restaurant better than eating feces? Well, maybe not, because Veronica Moser doesn't agree.

If you instead look at utility (enjoyment), where people vote with their free time and money where they want to spend it, and you assume that any one person doesn't count more than anyone else's (i.e. you are not a superior human with refined tastes because you consider Age of Conan to be a "fine wine" and WoW to be McDonalds -- as their devs claimed), then you can look at what provides the most utility to the most people.

I'm pretty sure eating any real food is preferable than eating feces. From a health standpoint, if not from any other, at the very least.

But in any case, your argument is flawed, because more people eat at McDonald's, ergo, McDonald's is the best restaurant?

I'm pretty depressed by this logic for two reasons.

1) What are the schools teaching these days that produces such horrible logic?

2) People really have no taste, and will just do whatever everyone else is doing, because it must be good?

Ghost Omel · Jun 03, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I'm pretty sure eating any real food is preferable than eating feces. From a health standpoint, if not from any other, at the very least.

But in any case, your argument is flawed, because more people eat at McDonald's, ergo, McDonald's is the best restaurant?

I'm pretty depressed by this logic for two reasons.

1) What are the schools teaching these days that produces such horrible logic?

2) People really have no taste, and will just do whatever everyone else is doing, because it must be good?

Mass brainwashing if you ask me.
Look at Rap right now...personaly i dont find it skillfull at all but id be outnumbered in this thought..especialy Brooklyn -_-

In any case WoW=/=McDonalds McDonalds is cheaper =)

But you can Compare McDonalds and a 99 cents store.

While McDonalds provides food for 6 bucks per meal, you can get much more food for the same price in 99 cents store of equal or slightly less quality that will last longer.

So WoW=McDonalds
GW=99 cents store 0_0

Hope you get the comparison i find myself going to 99 cents store more often then in McDonalds .. not reffering to the analogy here

Gigashadow · Jun 03, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I'm pretty sure eating any real food is preferable than eating feces. From a health standpoint, if not from any other, at the very least.

But in any case, your argument is flawed, because more people eat at McDonald's, ergo, McDonald's is the best restaurant?

I'm pretty depressed by this logic for two reasons.

1) What are the schools teaching these days that produces such horrible logic?

2) People really have no taste, and will just do whatever everyone else is doing, because it must be good?

The reason you are confused is that you have failed to understand the argument entirely and have just restated everything that has already been said before. You have neglected to define "best", and seem to have made the assumption that best=food quality in this case.

Did you ever wonder why people eat at McDonalds? Do you honestly think the people that eat there believe it is the best food in the world? It seems that you do, which is frankly an absurd assumption to make. People eat there because it is cheap and convenient, and those things have value (utility) to people.

And what is all that condescending nonsense about schooling? What, do you think you are smarter or better educated than me? I think when push comes to shove you will find you are way out of your league on that one. Don't be an ass.

Burst Cancel · Jun 03, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

And what is all that condescending nonsense about schooling? What, do you think you are smarter or better educated than me? I think when push comes to shove you will find you are way out of your league on that one. Don't be an ass.

You were doing so well, too.

The (male) ego is a puppetmaster with a very black sense of humor.

Mordakai · Jun 03, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

The reason you are confused is that you have failed to understand the argument entirely and have just restated everything that has already been said before. You have neglected to define "best", and seem to have made the assumption that best=food quality in this case.

Did you ever wonder why people eat at McDonalds? Do you honestly think the people that eat there believe it is the best food in the world? It seems that you do, which is frankly an absurd assumption to make. People eat there because it is cheap and convenient, and those things have value (utility) to people.

And what is all that condescending nonsense about schooling? What, do you think you are smarter or better educated than me? I think when push comes to shove you will find you are way out of your league on that one. Don't be an ass.

OK then, prove it.

I defined the word "best" already, but I will help you out and define it again:

Quote:

best: better than anybody or anything else; the highest quality standard that something is capable of; used as an enthusiastic endorsement of something.

I also stated it's a subjective word.

Now, I do admit you did not use the word "best", you used the word "utility (enjoyment)". In other words, I read your use of "utility" as just as subjective as the word "best."

I noticed you now use utility to mean value.

If that's the case, maybe you can explain how WoW offers more "utility" than Guild Wars?

Ghost Omel · Jun 03, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

OK then, prove it.

I defined the word "best" already, but I will help you out and define it again:

Maybe you can explain how WoW offers more "utility" than Guild Wars?

Let me answer for him with a typical "WoW is better then GW statement that all WoWers use..

WoW provides more enviroment to travel in as well as a free roam world unlike Guild Wars. Has an Auction House and a way to get moeny easier as well as /Sarcasm: Good and balanced PvP for all: End sarcasm/

+ More grind in WoW then in GW no matter how you slice it.. =)

No need to post now